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ANDIMIA

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Neil Young takes on the iPod and MP3s for destroying the quality of music

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In the iPod age, music sound quality has been dumbed down to "Fisher-Price toy" levels, rock star and tech enthusiast Neil Young said Wednesday at Fortune's Brainstorm Tech Conference.

"Apple has taken a detour down the convenience highway," Young told the Brainstorm audience after taking the stage for an interview with Time Inc. editor-in-chief John Huey. "Quality has taken a complete backseat - if it even gets in the car at all."

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4.4
{"commentId":2272909,"authorDomain":"Andimia"}

Digital audio has left something to be desired.

{"commentId":2272909,"threadId":"319163","contentId":"1693107","authorDomain":"Andimia"}
  • 2 votes
Reply#1 - Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:24 PM EDT
{"commentId":2273704,"authorDomain":"acidreflux"}

So has Neil Young's pathetic excuse for a singing voice, truth be told.

{"commentId":2273704,"threadId":"319163","contentId":"1693107","authorDomain":"acidreflux"}
  • 4 votes
Reply#2 - Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:09 PM EDT
{"commentId":2273941,"authorDomain":"brianford"}

A singing voice doesn't have to sound like Mariah Carey or (insert any other "angelic" singing voice here) to be "a singing voice" and I somehow doubt you'll find many people who will stand in the "Neil Young can't sing" line with you.

With that said, I have a few problems with his myopic view of the issue, most of which boil down to:

Apple isn't the problem, certainly not when it comes to file size restraints. The labels are the problem and they're dictating quality.

If Neil Young were to approach Apple and say:

"Hey, guys. I care about high fidelity audio. I want to put my Album on your service (and anyone else who will listen) at the highest possible quality at a reasonable rate, without dealing with the studio bull@!$%# that you usually have to put up with..."

His album would be on iTunes, at a higher quality.

{"commentId":2273941,"threadId":"319163","contentId":"1693107","authorDomain":"brianford"}
  • 5 votes
#2.1 - Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:46 PM EDT
{"commentId":2274983,"authorDomain":"jaybutler"}

Labels like Deutsche Grammophon have started selling higher quality files (and without DRM). They had issues with Apple's inflexible pricing (all individual songs 99 cents). With classical pieces, that obviously does not works as well since many of the tracks are 10-15 minutes.

Amazon sells 256 Kbps MP3, DG sells 320 Kbps. Neither is close to CD quality, but it is certainly testing the waters. If they start to gain momentum, I would expect Apple to pressure the labels to let iTS carry higher quality audio.

BTW, I believe that Neil Young has had something up his ass about digital music since the dawn of the compact disc. If I remember correctly, he was one of a small group of artists trying to get the labels to distribute their work in analog form only. They believed that all digital music lacked character.

{"commentId":2274983,"threadId":"319163","contentId":"1693107","authorDomain":"jaybutler"}
  • 3 votes
#2.2 - Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:49 PM EDT
{"commentId":2286819,"authorDomain":"hemphill"}

He has been against digital music from the get go, I think he's one of us that can hear a difference between analog and digital.

{"commentId":2286819,"threadId":"319163","contentId":"1693107","authorDomain":"hemphill"}
  • 1 vote
#2.3 - Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:46 PM EDT
Reply
{"commentId":2273827,"authorDomain":"TheMightyEmu"}

Well I blame Neil Young for his quality of music, but I digress...

It's entirely possible to encode your music with a higher bit rate than 128 kbps mp3s, even with iTunes. It would be nice if higher quality songs were easier to find on the music store, but from what I've read, that's partly the fault of the record companies licensing agreements.

{"commentId":2273827,"threadId":"319163","contentId":"1693107","authorDomain":"TheMightyEmu"}
  • 4 votes
Reply#3 - Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:27 PM EDT
{"commentId":2273947,"authorDomain":"brianford"}
Well I blame Neil Young for his quality of music, but I digress...

Which music? *All* of his music? Nothing from the Neil Young catalogue is any good?

{"commentId":2273947,"threadId":"319163","contentId":"1693107","authorDomain":"brianford"}
  • 1 vote
#3.1 - Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:47 PM EDT
{"commentId":2274281,"authorDomain":"TheMightyEmu"}

I didn't say none of it was good. I will say that I don't enjoy what I have heard. I respect him as a musician, but wouldn't choose to listen to him. Every time I hear Heart of Gold, all I can think of is Dana Carvey's HBO Special.

{"commentId":2274281,"threadId":"319163","contentId":"1693107","authorDomain":"TheMightyEmu"}
  • 4 votes
#3.2 - Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:47 PM EDT
Reply
{"commentId":2280106,"authorDomain":"Greyshore"}

Neil Young is only the face and voice behind what this topic is really about. Over the past 30 years artists from that era have seen their music take a auditory journey on vinyl to tape to CD to invisibility. It is the age old question of generation loss and preserving the recordings' quality from studio to the masses. Apple simply took the concept of acceptable, not pristine, audio quality that can be listened to anywhere. Add to that storing thousands of albums that fits in your pocket. What artists are trying to get back to is "lossless', crystal clear sound recordings, where you can hear the breath of a tenor sax, feedback of a vintage tube amp or grace notes and reflective reverb spanning your 8 speaker system creating a virtual placement of instrumentation.

Now on the other hand, if you prefer to hear a real pretty artist who really can't sing and has had multiple vocal processors accompany sound loops, then the mp3 is perfect, actually mp4 where it adds a little more to the highs and bottom.

So don't shoot the messenger!

{"commentId":2280106,"threadId":"319163","contentId":"1693107","authorDomain":"Greyshore"}
  • 3 votes
Reply#4 - Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:15 PM EDT
{"commentId":2285658,"authorDomain":"Andimia"}

Exactly Greyshore! There's nothing wrong with wanting the quality of music to be better. I would prefer to fill 500 Gigs of drive space with excellent quality music then have 100 Gigs of this poor-quality garbage. The sad thing is that the young children of today don't know the difference and even some of the older people have forgotten what music is supposed to sound like. Go to the symphony and when you get home suddenly all of those mp3's seem shallow and lacking.

{"commentId":2285658,"threadId":"319163","contentId":"1693107","authorDomain":"Andimia"}
  • 1 vote
#4.1 - Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:48 AM EDT
{"commentId":2287227,"authorDomain":"TheMightyEmu"}
There's nothing wrong with wanting the quality of music to be better.

I doubt anyone would argue against higher quality. What I think Mr. Young really should be complaining about is producers and engineers not using the available technology to it's fullest to make the music better.

{"commentId":2287227,"threadId":"319163","contentId":"1693107","authorDomain":"TheMightyEmu"}
  • 2 votes
#4.2 - Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:49 PM EDT
Reply
{"commentId":2285756,"authorDomain":"Andimia"}

I find the rips into Neil Young's music/singing voice hilarious. Where are your albums? What songs have you written lately? This is an article about somebody standing up for quality music files and you feel the need to make personal attacks against him. You guys crack me up.

{"commentId":2285756,"threadId":"319163","contentId":"1693107","authorDomain":"Andimia"}
    Reply#5 - Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:02 AM EDT
    {"commentId":2286889,"authorDomain":"TheMightyEmu"}

    You don't need to be a professional musician to know and say what you like or don't like. Music is just as much about personal taste as it is talent, so I think it's valid to question where he's coming from before I accept his argument. I do think he's a little off the mark with his complaints about digital music in general and with Apple in particular. I'm all for higher quality digital music, but until the average joe stops buying crap, the record companies (and Apple) will keep shoveling it.

    {"commentId":2286889,"threadId":"319163","contentId":"1693107","authorDomain":"TheMightyEmu"}
    • 1 vote
    #5.1 - Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:58 PM EDT
    {"commentId":2287002,"authorDomain":"TheMightyEmu"}

    Sorry for the second post, but I just found this article, What Happened To Dynamic Range? that I've been looking for. It talks about the decline of production values and dynamic range in music that came along with the ease and availability of digital technology. I thought it might be relevant.

    {"commentId":2287002,"threadId":"319163","contentId":"1693107","authorDomain":"TheMightyEmu"}
    • 1 vote
    #5.2 - Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:17 PM EDT
    {"commentId":2287921,"authorDomain":"Andimia"}

    Great link. here's a more visual depiction of what has happened in the death of music dynamics.

    This is the video that I've been searching for since I found this article. It visually and audibly demonstrates what's wrong with the way music is treated now.

    {"commentId":2287921,"threadId":"319163","contentId":"1693107","authorDomain":"Andimia"}
    • 1 vote
    #5.3 - Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:26 PM EDT
    {"commentId":2303179,"authorDomain":"Greyshore"}

    It is apparent that some didn't read the article or that they really don't like Neil Young. It's about the sound!!

    {"commentId":2303179,"threadId":"319163","contentId":"1693107","authorDomain":"Greyshore"}
      #5.4 - Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:01 PM EDT
      {"commentId":2305388,"authorDomain":"TheMightyEmu"}

      If you are referring to me, I did read the article and it is 'about the sound!!'. However, Mr. Young is laying the blame on Apple and the iPod specifically and digital music in general. I find that a little unfair.

      "Apple has taken a detour down the convenience highway," Young told the Brainstorm audience after taking the stage for an interview with Time Inc. editor-in-chief John Huey.

      For the record, the iPod (I can't speak for other players) is capable of playing higher quality, lossless audio files. I don't disagree that most digital music currently sold by the iTMS is inferior to analog recordings, but that problem begins much higher in the chain than Apple. It starts with shoddy mixing at the source and continues with a hobbled product (sub-par digital compression) passed along by the record labels. Maybe Apple could put more pressure on them to make higher resolution recordings available. Maybe the labels could focus on their product instead of suing their customers. Maybe artists could stop signing with major labels if they are unhappy with the production values. Maybe Neil Young could stop shooting the messenger and aim for the source of the problem.

      {"commentId":2305388,"threadId":"319163","contentId":"1693107","authorDomain":"TheMightyEmu"}
      • 1 vote
      #5.5 - Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:19 PM EDT
      {"commentId":2305683,"authorDomain":"Greyshore"}

      I wasn't referring to you MightyEmu. More so pointing out to those just finding this thread, and the matter of preference comment by Brian, who clearly is not a fan, that the music can be more than it is. In fact I agree that the major labels are about saving their precious dollars, cutting out the needed post production and settling with where there income generation is geared to.

      Look at the cell downloads and iTunes for examples. The intended user will not know the difference if the the studio version produced hi fidelty or not. It is in the hand of the artist and the contract that they have. More production is spend on the glam artists that are going to bring in the numbers. In fact it is over produced in my opinion. I would be happy listening to a live performance from CSN, Dave Matthews or Phish!

      The whole music industry is a nightmare right now. That is why we are seeing the Stones switch labels, Peter Gabriel promoting his own studio to artists for higher fidelity sound, and DRM being stripped from downloads. There is no control over the industy by the labels, and power is being shifted to the artist. Honestly, I am glad as I have been a musician for 30 years. I couldn't imagine that after spending thousands of dollars recording a song only to hear it coming out of someones cell phone...and I play bass so there is no bottom end.

      Plus, the old school guys aren't as tech savvy and rely on the album sales for revenue.

      {"commentId":2305683,"threadId":"319163","contentId":"1693107","authorDomain":"Greyshore"}
      • 1 vote
      #5.6 - Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:06 PM EDT
      Reply
      {"commentId":2305756,"authorDomain":"Greyshore"}

      I got timed out. I was editing my last comment:

      Plus, the old school guys aren't as tech savvy and rely on the CD and performance revenue. It seems to be the trend. Even Roger Daultry had a comment about his royalties on the VH1 tribute last week. Bands coming out of retirement. That is another thread all together.

      {"commentId":2305756,"threadId":"319163","contentId":"1693107","authorDomain":"Greyshore"}
        Reply#6 - Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:19 PM EDT
        {"commentId":2305881,"authorDomain":"Greyshore"}

        My apologies to Brian. After re-reading your comment you were simply proposing the question about what Emu didn't like about Neil.

        A singing voice doesn't have to sound like Mariah Carey

        Yes Apple could upgrade their lossless compression and offer a larger, more dynamic download but that doesn't sell the ipod or iphone due to file size. At least not yet, maybe next year when they roll out the Terabyte backpack with Bluetooth stream for you leisurely jog.

        {"commentId":2305881,"threadId":"319163","contentId":"1693107","authorDomain":"Greyshore"}
          Reply#7 - Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:43 PM EDT
          {"commentId":2309279,"authorDomain":"Andimia"}
          maybe next year when they roll out the Terabyte backpack with Bluetooth stream for you leisurely jog.

          I'm thinking we'll see joggers with the new terabyte fanny pack.

          {"commentId":2309279,"threadId":"319163","contentId":"1693107","authorDomain":"Andimia"}
            #7.1 - Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:50 AM EDT
            {"commentId":2309484,"authorDomain":"Greyshore"}

            Then Apple and all the 3rd parties can offer the 2TB iPack in rainbow colors.

            {"commentId":2309484,"threadId":"319163","contentId":"1693107","authorDomain":"Greyshore"}
              #7.2 - Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:03 PM EDT
              {"commentId":2313271,"authorDomain":"TheMightyEmu"}
              maybe next year when they roll out the Terabyte backpack with Bluetooth stream for you leisurely jog.

              It's kinda difficult to take your hi-fi with when you go jogging too. I'm trying to understand if you two think there's any place for digital music, or even the lowly mp3 at all. How good is good enough? Short of hearing music played live there's going to be loss in any form of recording. I will agree with Neil Young on one point ...

              Young complained that music has become "like wallpaper" - more Muzak than music.

              There are times when I treat music as wallpaper or background music because I'm focusing on something else like riding my bike or reading on the train. I like to have music on because I can't stand sitting in silence. Is that necessarily a bad thing? If I'm not listening to superior quality I shouldn't be listening at all? I'm not going to sit down in front of the sound system every time I want to hear a song.

              {"commentId":2313271,"threadId":"319163","contentId":"1693107","authorDomain":"TheMightyEmu"}
              • 1 vote
              #7.3 - Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:11 PM EDT
              {"commentId":2313911,"authorDomain":"Andimia"}

              After going to the symphony all other music is disappointing for a good week. There's no way of getting around that but that doesn't mean that we can't make advances in audio quality. We're upping photo quality by megapixels, digital storage capacity is growing while the physical size of it shrinks and processing speed is getting faster and faster. Then why are we settling for average music quality that hasn't advanced in years? It's not like we're limited by file size that much anymore. Can you really listen to 100GB of MP3s? Do you actually like all of those songs? Why not cull out the garbage and fill that space with better quality music?

              {"commentId":2313911,"threadId":"319163","contentId":"1693107","authorDomain":"Andimia"}
              • 2 votes
              #7.4 - Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:16 PM EDT
              {"commentId":2314950,"authorDomain":"TheMightyEmu"}
              Then why are we settling for average music quality that hasn't advanced in years? It's not like we're limited by file size that much anymore. Can you really listen to 100GB of MP3s? Do you actually like all of those songs? Why not cull out the garbage and fill that space with better quality music?

              And that's exactly what I'm saying. Apple says that it's lossless format will compress a 700MB CD to about 350 MB. If you bought the 160 GB iPod and filled it with nothing but lossless music that comes out to about 450 full albums at CD quality in your pocket for $350. The limitation there doesn't come from the iPod, it comes from the CD itself.

              The iTunes store is another story. I honestly don't know if Apple is even trying to provide songs in lossless format, or if the labels would allow it. I'd easily pay for the higher quality though if it cost at most the same as a CD.

              {"commentId":2314950,"threadId":"319163","contentId":"1693107","authorDomain":"TheMightyEmu"}
              • 1 vote
              #7.5 - Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:23 PM EDT
              {"commentId":2318985,"authorDomain":"Greyshore"}
              How good is good enough? Short of hearing music played live there's going to be loss in any form of recording.

              That primarily is the issue. The age old question "is it LIVE or is it memorex?" I still have my favorite T-shirt with memorex guy sitting in his chair in front of the speakers with his hair and scarf blowing backwards.

              It is a rarity anymore that I can get the time to actually sit in front of my home system with the volume up, listening to my favorite CDs. The quality being only as good as the device you are playing it on. Even headphones range in audible quality.

              You can't put the fat back in the filet mignon

              Our audio selections that we purchase are limited to what the recorded media allows, and what the market is willing to pay for. Once it is on CD it is digital! Yes I believe digital audio, whether it is a variable bit rate of 128kbps or 192 has its place. Again, it is hard to choose a side here.

              The Digital Audio format that promised clearer fidelity didn't take. The players were expensive and so were the CDs. Not only that but there was more cost in post production. If the labels didn't eat the cost, and it was up to the artist to foot the bill, knowing that many people, who don't have discernable ears would choose the cheaper option.

              {"commentId":2318985,"threadId":"319163","contentId":"1693107","authorDomain":"Greyshore"}
                #7.6 - Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:13 AM EDT
                {"commentId":2321629,"authorDomain":"Andimia"}
                The quality being only as good as the device you are playing it on. Even headphones range in audible quality.

                I find that my MP3 player (a loathsome piece of Sony garbage) actually has superior sound quality compared to MP3 players that my friends have. The ear buds are better and with the option for noise canceling I would actually enjoy my MP3 player if it didn't have this awful software that was needed to put music on it. Damn you Sonic Stage!!

                {"commentId":2321629,"threadId":"319163","contentId":"1693107","authorDomain":"Andimia"}
                • 1 vote
                #7.7 - Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:44 PM EDT
                {"commentId":2321858,"authorDomain":"Greyshore"}

                Sony has that proprietary software, even the MiniDiscs (which sound remarkably well for live audio recording even in the louder db range) use software that if you want to extract or add to you need. Otherwise the download to PC would be sacrificed through analog means and defeats the purpose.

                {"commentId":2321858,"threadId":"319163","contentId":"1693107","authorDomain":"Greyshore"}
                  #7.8 - Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:05 PM EDT
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